Predator, prey, ?

[kickaha]

Saw this article about guide horses for the blind. Keen stuff. I can definitely see how it could have some advantages over the traditional guide dog (hoof scuffs on wood floors not withstanding.)

The following quote caught my eye though:

"Because they are herd animals, they can predict where a moving object is heading and help adjust, said Edie."

Okay, I can buy that, it makes sense. However... couldn't that also be said to be true of predators such as canines? If you can't run down that gazelle, you're not going to be eating tonight. This got me thinking further... if predators and herd animals have these common traits that make them good guide animals, what animals are left that wouldn't? Non-herd prey, such as, I dunno, rabbits? But then, don't they have to be extremely sensitive to motion in the environment at *all* times, without guard members of the herd on lookout? You'd think they'd be even better at quick reactions to unexpected motion.

Which of course means they'd suck as guide animals (eee! bus! RUN!), but it struck me that pretty much *any* animal is going to have the trait defined, won't it? Can you think of an animal that *can't* 'predict where a moving object is heading'?

Comments

[icebluenothing.livejournal.com]

Sponges?

[kickaha.livejournal.com]

Smartass. :D

Alright, let me rephrase that... any animal that might be suitable as a guide animal, that can't predict where a moving object is heading?

[badger.livejournal.com]

No, nothing that I can remotely think of. Prey animals predict motion to avoid being eaten, predators predict motion to catch prey and/or to avoid bigger predators. Cows are stupid for mammals, but bullfighting would be really boring if the bull couldn't track the human. The "herd animal" phrasing you're reacting to is an irrelevant remark in our (I asked M the bio person) opinion. Even chickens can predict motion to dodge you trying to catch them, and chickens are, well, dumb.

I'm also reminded of the Larry Niven SF argument that sentience is more likely to develop in omni- or carnivores than in herbivores on the "How much intelligence does it take to sneak up on a blade of grass?" Partial and ignoring other issues, but it's still a great line.

[retcon.livejournal.com]

I think it may be more along the lines of certain herd animals possessing the ability to collaborate. It's not merely the ability to track movement of one or multiple other moving objects and compensate as an individual, but to compensate as a group or cohesive whole towards a shared goal.

I think there may be some value in the distinction, but I'm not fully cognizant of the vagaries of herd animal psychology to really defend this position.

I am also willing to accept that I may just be talking out of my ass. :)

[badger.livejournal.com]

Oh, certainly, or at least that (your first and second paragraphs, that is) appears reasonable to me. I'd even argue that herd-characteristic prey animals would likely be more appropriate for guide duty than non-herd prey animals.

However, neither your remarks nor mine is how the sentence *reads* :), which is what I believe was kickaha's problem with the statement. As quoted, the sentence implies that the quality of being a herd animal gives that animal an advantage of that non-herd animals (predator or not) do not possess.

So I answered kickaha's question as he stated it. I do like your comments, though.

[emschwar.livejournal.com]

I have to think a squirrel would make a pretty crappy guide animal. I mean, they seem to like to dart out in front of moving cars.



noah
hi jjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjase

[kickaha.livejournal.com]

Not to mention that you'd spend half your day revisiting where they'd buried their nuts...

[jason0x21.livejournal.com]

Possum.

[kickaha.livejournal.com]

Hmmm. Interesting. Doesn't herd, isn't a carnivore (as in taking down substantial prey), and it isn't a prey animal of note. We might have a winner here.

[golemkennels.livejournal.com]

I think they might mean this:

They aren't made to counter the movement, they are meant to flow with it.

A herding dog would counter or stop the movement, a fish in a school, or a sheep or horse in a herd, flows with it. The communal mind that is a pack oriented predator is different than that of a herd prey - jobs are assigned and there is perhaps more individual responsibility in a predator pack, but in a herd, there are a few assigned jobs, and the rest do the same thing.

That's my guess. If they mean that horses are more sensitive to body language than dogs, they are full of BS. I'd say they are probably even with training.

[kimokeane.livejournal.com]

Yeah, movement rules for herd/flock/school animals are hardwired and executed rapidly and instinctively - watch the flow of a flock of birds or school of fish for best effect. Predators have a much more conscious system of tracking, and it seeks to identify individual targets for lunch - note the confusion resulting when the herd sticks close together and a single animal cannot be identified.

I think the original quotation is worded poorly, and thus your conclusion is flawed not because of any lack of mental capacity but because it relied on a poor premise. Being part of a herd makes you good at being part of a herd, which is really a large number of moving objects, not a single one.

Also, don't confuse herd/nonherd with prey/predators. Canines are definitely pack animals, but not herd prey animals. The pack and hierarchy characteristics of canines make them more suited for guiding than the solitary nature of felines, since it makes them easier to train and keep in a subordinate position while working.